Simply ‘Ellen’s’ term remains a secret, indeed there is apparently no-that named Ellen otherwise Helen, except possibly a keen ‘Eleanor’ for the Joanna’s front (Eleanor from Aquitaine, mother off Joanna’s dad King John)
Hi, men and women. It is really interesting; everything i would not has actually supplied to get access to this particular article twenty-five years ago when i try evaluating and you will writing Here End up being Dragons!
The key aim of it workout is to use, by the a look at genealogist’s feedback on the subject and also by consulting particular identified brand spanking new sources, to decide who had been the caretaker of Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Try she Joanna, spouse off Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Born circa.1188, passed away. March 1237) or is she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch regarding Rhos, domme out-of Llywelyn, created circa. 1168, died??
I will follow this with a vacation investigation to the you can existence off an effective ded Susanna, given over to King Henry 111 just like the good hostage within the 1228 with her infant custody getting supplied in order to Sir Nicholas Verdun and his wife Clementia.
The opinions of the Genealogists which i has actually studied are only you to definitely, feedback, in addition they disagree significantly. No specified evidence can be acquired regardless, but have to say that most hold getting Gwladus are the fresh child of Joanna. This is particularly true of the genealogists of descendants away from this new De Braose sexy Florianpolis girls family relations, however they ily to get tied to the Welsh and English royal households!
The list following of Llywelyn’s multiple genuine and you may illegitimate pupils appears to-be basically recognized of the the genealogists that we enjoys read apart from differences over whether or not number 9 very resided. The fresh new times from beginning down the page are disputed by the specific:
- Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, produced circa.1199, died 1244
- Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, created circa.1206, passed away 1251
- Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
- Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1208? passed away circa 1263,
- Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince of Wales, born circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts regarding it go out, pick later), passed away 25 February 1246,
- Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1209 passed away 1281.
- Angharad ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1210, passed away 1257
- Tegwared ap Llywelyn – produced circa 1210, you’ll be able to twin so you can Angharad?
- ‘Helen’, otherwise ‘Susanna’, born circa 1214? Died 1259?
There clearly was far argument along side identity of your parents out of these types of youngsters. There is general agreement that merely specific youngsters out-of Llywelyn’s age Prince out of Wales and you will Ellen (Helen) exactly who partnered (1) John the fresh new Scot, young buck of earl out-of Chester and you will (2) Robert de- Quincy. Regardless of if view is split up over the moms and dads off Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you will Susanna, a good many genealogists You will find read slim on the mom are Joanna.
This is exactly partly using their heading dates out of birth as well because their marriage ceremonies to various marcher lords who, one supposes, could have wanted so you’re able to make their houses to this of the neighbour, the latest Prince out of North Wales with his spouse, the new king out of England’s child. It’s felt that these types of lords of the February won’t have seen really attract or political desire when you look at the marrying of its sons to your illegitimate daughters out of a great Welsh prince that have a beneficial Welsh woman.
As to the names of those children, if or not of the Joanna, Tangwystl otherwise anybody else, they certainly were all the titled after members of Llywelyn’s family relations:
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Llywelyn’s mother was named ‘ed ‘Susanna’ out-of Gwynedd. Their paternal grandmother is actually entitled ‘Gwladus’. The mother and father of his grandma Susanna, was in fact ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you may ‘Angharad’ out of Flint and you may both their brands got to help you Llywelyn’s youngsters. It Susanna along with got a sister called ‘Gwenllian’, a comparable title since Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.
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